Curse

NerfHerder · Jul 28, 2010, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

This.

You can't nerf attack skill spam, because then scythes become useless, and it's the only thing dervishes can do somewhat effectively.

You can't buff attack skill spam, because other classes can already use the scythe better than the dervish, and that won't help.

You can't buff enchantment juggling, because...well, actually, you can, but unless you give all PBAoEs armor ignoring damage, 1/4 second cast times, 3 sec recharges, and 5 energy costs while giving all enchantment removal attacks 5 energy costs with instant recharges and 1/2 sec activations and +70 damage while reverting mysticism...then enchantment juggling will never compete with attack skill spam, and will therefore remain useless. Sadly, that's just how powerful attack skill spam is. Even with a 60 armor-ignoring enchantment every sec or so, you still need a 0.5 sec activation 100+ damage attack skill after it just to compete with zealous vow and warrior's endurance, to say nothing of beating them (and to beat critscythe? jeez, the numbers would have to be even higher). And it's highly unlikely Anet would be willing to do this, because these sorts of numbers look very overpowered until you actually do the math.

Realistically, the only thing we can expect from Anet that will really help the dervish is to link AoHM to mysticism, thereby making the dervish the best scythe user almost by default.

I agree with the attack spam skills and tying AoHM to Mysticism. The AoHM change is not a buff. But, it would more evenly balance Dervish Vs any other profession using a scythe. So from a balance perspective its an easy/no brainer fix for PvE.

As for buffing the Derv, Avatar and Dervish enchantments could be reworked to make the Dervish a more viable option. Im thinking more along the lines of how the Warrior was buffed recently. Even still, a hammer Warrior can not out DPS a dagger Sin. But bringing a hammer Warrior does add a unique type of crowd control and utility an Assassin cannot do. I would give some specific details, but this thread isnt really about skill changes. (there are or at least were some good suggestions in the campfire section.)

On Topic, I normally side with Anet when they come up with excuses for not updating often. But the change of command in the Live Team will be a perfect scapegoat for a few months.

saume · Jul 28, 2010, 09:28 AM // 09:28

u cant really buff dervs, u would have to make them less enchantment dependant and that would kinda defeat the whole point of dervs, they already have a bunch of good enchantments, but theyre enchantments

i would like to see imbue health dervs in GvG but i doubt they will ever buff healer dervs enough to make them viable in GvG

Lanier · Jul 28, 2010, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by saume

u cant really buff dervs, u would have to make them less enchantment dependant and that would kinda defeat the whole point of dervs, they already have a bunch of good enchantments, but theyre enchantments

i would like to see imbue health dervs in GvG but i doubt they will ever buff healer dervs enough to make them viable in GvG

I was under the impression that the derv update was going to be more of a PvE one, and even if its not, there always are skill splits. In PvE, there is few enough enchantment removal that it would be possible to buff them in a way that they retain their dependancy on enchantments. Personally, I would like to see more of an enchantment juggeling (sp?) buff like someone earlier mentioned. In my opinion, scythe damage is fine as it is, and if a scythe dervish isn't as powerful as a scythe sin or scythe derv, then those options should be nerfed so that a derv is the most powerful scythe user.

Tullzinski · Jul 28, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46

I resent this whole idea that the dervish needs updating, my dervish is an awesome mule. I would have to move all that stuff if ANET makes the dervish worthwhile.

Karate Jesus · Jul 28, 2010, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Saying nothing else about the status of the update, I would advise you not to hold your breath.

So, it's either going to be incredibly late or incredibly bad?

Awesome....Anet strikes again Zzz

Silverblad3 · Jul 28, 2010, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

I resent this whole idea that the dervish needs updating, my dervish is an awesome mule. I would have to move all that stuff if ANET makes the dervish worthwhile.

Epic post. Have not laughed so much on a guru post in several months.....

aspi · Jul 28, 2010, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

So, it's either going to be incredibly late or incredibly bad?

Awesome....Anet strikes again Zzz

Dude, really can't you just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO off?

Karate Jesus · Jul 28, 2010, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

Dude, really can't you just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO off?

Hmm? Quoting a TK member and observing his implications means I should leave?

Also, whoru?

Gill Halendt · Jul 28, 2010, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

I resent this whole idea that the dervish needs updating, my dervish is an awesome mule. I would have to move all that stuff if ANET makes the dervish worthwhile.

'Balance Update: With this update we meant to address some issue with Dervishes and Paragons. Dervishes were fixed, while Paragons were finally given a purpose: pack mules."

belshazaarswrath · Jul 28, 2010, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

So, it's either going to be incredibly late or incredibly bad?

Awesome....Anet strikes again Zzz

How do you get incredibly bad out of that? He just said it's probably going to be awhile till the update comes.

FengShuiDove · Jul 28, 2010, 07:28 PM // 19:28

The Mesmer update was pretty high-quality folks. Given the amount of time and sole dedication that the Dervish update is going to get, it'll be fine. Though it's mostly repeating, here's my rapsheet:

1. Avatars suck -- they have bad functionalities and require an elite slot plus a PvE only slot to maintain. Fix it on one or both levels.

2. Mysticism sucks -- it sucks. There's not much else to say. The skills are bad, the functionality is worse. Fix it on one or both levels.

3. Dervish attack skills suck -- by and large, they're terrible. Too many conditionals, to long of recharges, too high energy with poor e-management. Yeah, we've got 5-7 good scythe attack skills, two of which are elite, and two normals of which are meta-game material.

4. Wind Prayers and Earth Prayers aren't worth the investment -- there are some decent skills in each line, but not enough to justify re-spec.

5. Dervish elites are bad -- again, by and large. Weird functionality, poor stats compared to similar skills from other professions, terrible attribute lines. Everything about the vast majority of Derv elites is outclassed by something else.

Overall, the list of Dervish's shortcomings is similar to the list of the Mesmer's. I enjoyed the Mesmer buffs and think ANet did a great job. It might take a while, but I think they'll do a good job.

And don't kid yourself about the update being something as small as "Aura of Holy Might ahs been linked to Mysticism." If that happened, lots of folks would rage. But it won't.

Lishy · Jul 28, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

I resent this whole idea that the dervish needs updating, my dervish is an awesome mule. I would have to move all that stuff if ANET makes the dervish worthwhile.

Ahaha, same here. I'ma have to move the mule to my ele

shoyon456 · Jul 28, 2010, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

So, it's either going to be incredibly late or incredibly bad?

Awesome....FAILnet strikes again Zzz

Fixed. There's a reason they haven't done a damn thing to address Dervs in years and seems like they removed them completely from GW2. They can't balance or spend enough time balancing their damn game and the playstyle/class isn't the most popular (compare to Failnet's Ken-doll Warriors).

Whether its late or terrible, this won't affect Anet much. Frankly it's completely in Anet's court. Not enough people main as Dervs to cause massive rage if the update is a failure, yet if it's good everyone will give them a pat on the back.

It's sad but true. I gave up on expecting anything from Anet quite awhile ago, especially while having my main as an undesirable expansion class.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 28, 2010, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

And don't kid yourself about the update being something as small as "Aura of Holy Might ahs been linked to Mysticism." If that happened, lots of folks would rage. But it won't.

Agreed. If that's all they were gonna do they wouldn't even mention it. IF they say they'll update they'll update.

Quote:

Fixed. There's a reason they haven't done a damn thing to address Dervs in years and seems like they removed them completely from GW2. They can't balance or spend enough time balancing their damn game and the playstyle/class isn't the most popular (compare to Failnet's Ken-doll Warriors).

Whether its late or terrible, this won't affect Anet much. Frankly it's completely in Anet's court. Not enough people main as Dervs to cause massive rage if the update is a failure, yet if it's good everyone will give them a pat on the back.

It's sad but true. I gave up on expecting anything from Anet quite awhile ago, especially while having my main as an undesirable expansion class.

BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

own age myname · Jul 28, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Fixed. There's a reason they haven't done a damn thing to address Dervs in years and seems like they removed them completely from GW2. They can't balance or spend enough time balancing their damn game and the playstyle/class isn't the most popular (compare to Failnet's Ken-doll Warriors).

Whether its late or terrible, this won't affect Anet much. Frankly it's completely in Anet's court. Not enough people main as Dervs to cause massive rage if the update is a failure, yet if it's good everyone will give them a pat on the back.

It's sad but true. I gave up on expecting anything from Anet quite awhile ago, especially while having my main as an undesirable expansion class.

Let me play a song for you...

StormX · Jul 29, 2010, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Fixed. There's a reason they haven't done a damn thing to address Dervs in years and seems like they removed them completely from GW2. They can't balance or spend enough time balancing their damn game and the playstyle/class isn't the most popular (compare to Failnet's Ken-doll Warriors).

*BAWWWWWS* along with him. I was getting fond of my derv, guess I'll have to remake him as an...ugh...warrior, or whatever the other soldier class is.

reaper with no name · Jul 29, 2010, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

The Mesmer update was pretty high-quality folks. Given the amount of time and sole dedication that the Dervish update is going to get, it'll be fine. Though it's mostly repeating, here's my rapsheet:

1. Avatars suck -- they have bad functionalities and require an elite slot plus a PvE only slot to maintain. Fix it on one or both levels.

2. Mysticism sucks -- it sucks. There's not much else to say. The skills are bad, the functionality is worse. Fix it on one or both levels.

3. Dervish attack skills suck -- by and large, they're terrible. Too many conditionals, to long of recharges, too high energy with poor e-management. Yeah, we've got 5-7 good scythe attack skills, two of which are elite, and two normals of which are meta-game material.

4. Wind Prayers and Earth Prayers aren't worth the investment -- there are some decent skills in each line, but not enough to justify re-spec.

5. Dervish elites are bad -- again, by and large. Weird functionality, poor stats compared to similar skills from other professions, terrible attribute lines. Everything about the vast majority of Derv elites is outclassed by something else.

Overall, the list of Dervish's shortcomings is similar to the list of the Mesmer's. I enjoyed the Mesmer buffs and think ANet did a great job. It might take a while, but I think they'll do a good job.

And don't kid yourself about the update being something as small as "Aura of Holy Might ahs been linked to Mysticism." If that happened, lots of folks would rage. But it won't.

Assuming Anet does fix AoHM (which they'd better, or I'll lose all hope in them again), it won't be the only change they make. But most likely, it will be the only one that matters. Unless enchantment juggling becomes more powerful than critscythe or Enduring scythe, it will remain absolutely useless. Unless the avatars can provide something useful to the party that nothing else can, then they too will remain useless.

Look at it this way: every class has to have at least one niche to be useful. There are 10 professions. That means that some of them will inevitably have a very narrow niche (especially with some classes like the necromancer and warrior filling multiple niches). The ranger, for example, is pretty much limited to ranged physical AoE at this point (read: Barrage), and all the Paragon has is party-wide defense buffs combined with some damage (ie, Imbagon). With the game set up the way it currently is, the only niche really open to the dervish is melee AoE, a niche currently occupied by the assassin and warrior (neither of which need it or are even supposed to be doing that).

Buffing the dervish in ways that don't help it to reach this or some other niche will not help it. There are only two ways the dervish can become the best general melee AoE: scythes or PBAoEs/scythes. The first requires AoHM be changed (well, there are other ways, but that's the easiest). The second requires the biggest buffs in the game's entire history. We're talking about the equivalent of making Mending more powerful than WoH.

So what do you think is more likely? That Anet will take a huge risk to fix the problem elegantly, or that it will buff one thing that will definitely work (albeit in a less than elegant way) along with some other stuff that won't actually matter but will make players think does?

Ghost Dog · Jul 29, 2010, 06:05 AM // 06:05

So much whining about an update that doesn't yet exist.

How do you people take yourselves seriously? Nobody is going to listen to you.

Morphy · Jul 29, 2010, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

So much whining about an update that doesn't yet exist.

How do you people take yourselves seriously? Nobody is going to listen to you.

0/10. Try harder next time.

HigherMinion · Jul 29, 2010, 06:39 AM // 06:39

They should make Avatar of Grenth lifesteal adjacent foes with each scythe attack! Waaa

Infact, the avatars are so weak compared to attack-spamming, they might aswell remove the "Disabled 120s" clause.